George Saunders: I experience inspiration as happiness.

On the occasion of his visit to Greece, George Saunders gave an extremely interesting interview to Giorgos Nastos for the magazine VIMAgazino, in which he spoke about the infinite versions of history and the place of humour and kindness in books and in life. You can read it below: Mr Saunders, you have obviously carried out thorough research for the writing of this book. Did you learn anything in the course of this that surprised you? ‘There is indeed something. According to contemporary accounts, Lincoln was very popular with women – although he was unattractive, he was tall and charismatic, and women were drawn to him. He wanted, however, to be a good husband, so he had found a way to keep them at a distance, because on the one hand his wife was very jealous, and on the other he respected and loved her. He exuded intense sexual energy, but he didn’t let it show. This was something I didn’t know about him and it confirmed a feeling I had that he was a distant, disciplined man. He wasn’t particularly warm, but he had a way of controlling his environment.” In your work, you cite many conflicting historical accounts. Can we trust memory and, by extension, History? ‘If in ten years’ time they ask both of us about that day, we will both describe it incorrectly; it will probably seem vivid in our memory but will have turned into something else. I have been a scientist, and part of being a good scientist is knowing the limits of one’s subject. Of course we can trust history, yet when dealing with the details, one must take into account the limitations imposed by memory. Nowadays, even experts believe that we distort our memories to confirm our worldview; so whether we are talking about history or life, it would be wise to view our certainty that we remember with a touch of humility. There is something I find very beautiful: the fact that, let’s say, a party takes place and as soon as it’s over, it’s as if there have been as many parties as there were guests – everyone remembers their own version and the truth, ultimately, is all these versions together; there is nothing more objective.You had been mulling over the idea for ‘Lethis and Lincoln’ for many years. Why did it take you so long to finally write this novel?A writer far greater than myself once said that if a writer learns the difference between ideas that will become books and those that really ought to become books, he will save himself a good fifteen years of hard work. It was a difficult challenge from a technical point of view, and I didn’t know if I could have managed it any sooner. At some point, I realised that all the reasons holding me back should, in fact, have convinced me. It’s an interesting fact that if an idea is difficult, then it’s likely to be a very good one. Because it has something to teach you. Some books broaden our horizons; this was one such book. As we grow older, we settle into our comfort zones. Of course, there’s always the risk that when you take a chance, you’ll make a complete mess of things. But you’re as good as dead if you don’t try.’ You drew inspiration from an unjust, tragic death. What do such events teach us? “Many years ago, a friend of ours died young and I was thinking of writing something to his wife. It was a tragedy; they had a small child; there was nothing comforting about the whole story. The people we love, however, continue to exist within us and interact with us; they change something about our presence in the world. There are many ways to change a person’s life; if a man comes in here and starts shooting and you save me, that will be significant and I thank you, but if we have a nice chat and something starts to click inside me, then you’ve influenced me for the rest of my life, and perhaps I’ll influence others too. It sounds a bit New Age, but there’s a grain of truth in it. I believe that our positive and negative actions have a corresponding impact on the world. Most of the book’s heroes find themselves in a strange state between death and definitive non-existence. Personally, what do you believe happens after we leave this world? “I think there is something, and I believe there is plenty of evidence – with accounts of near-death experiences, for instance. I don’t believe, in other words, that a switch is simply flipped and that’s it. Patricia Pearson has written a book on communicating with spirits; she almost convinces you with the examples she gives.” Reading your interviews, I was struck by how much importance you attach to humility… “The times I’ve felt truly wise in my life were when I was really down; I didn’t pretend when I felt I knew nothing. I’m very suspicious of self-confidence, especially when I see it in myself. My book did well in America and I toured the whole country hearing praise, so I had to tell myself that it was ‘full of shit’. I have to keep checking myself, because certainty is a bad advisor.You’ve embraced Buddhism. Has it helped you in your relationship with mortality? “I’m still at the beginning. You know, I sometimes think I’m a balanced sort of bloke. Until they lose my luggage at the airport – then I realise I’m not ready for death at all. From the little meditation I’ve done, I understand that there’s a way to change this machine called the brain and react better to adversity. I know the small steps I can take and I try to do them. I find it very interesting that human experience is based on small assessments. If I ask myself how I am, if I think that I have become a writer and that I am doing well, I immediately calm down. No one, however, is keeping score. There is only you and the moment. And then the next moment. There is nothing else.’ ‘Your offbeat humour is present in all your writing. Is it a strategic choice as a writer or a fundamental aspect of your character?’ ‘Obviously both. The writing process is a validation and an expression of one’s personality. How you process the world will be reflected in how you process a book. I find that I have a mind that operates both emotionally and sarcastically at the same time. I can be at a funeral, genuinely sad, and notice that the deceased’s trousers are slightly dirty, and find that tragicomic. Over time, you learn to understand which side prevails in each situation. When I’m nervous, when I feel inadequate, I become sarcastic, but I know that’s not all I am. None of these things are you; they are aspects of yourself that you have access to. An initial draft of the book had turned out far too serious and needed a bit of humour. It was a strategic choice, but it was also closer to who I am. What I’m trying to do as I get older is to be open to whatever happens to me. When I was younger, it was very easy for me to joke constantly and, in essence, to trivialise every situation. I thought I was on top of everything and being honest, but I was simply honouring just one aspect of my character.” I see you say you have an emotional brain rather than that you are emotional. Is it all down to the chemistry of the organ in our heads? “I believe in neurological processes. There is a system of chemical reactions within us that, when you are young, you think is identical to yourself; then you come to see it as the world; and at some point you realise why your reactions are predictable—you have decoded them. I have come to a very liberating conclusion: We are not merely our thoughts. We are so much more.’ Your speech at the Syracuse University graduation ceremony, where you teach creative writing, which has been published under the title ‘Congratulations – Thoughts on Kindness’, speaks of kindness towards others. Is kindness towards ourselves a first step? ‘I wrote that speech in a hurry, in three days, so it remains a bit superficial. In America, kindness is equated with being good, and I don’t agree with that interpretation. The definition I now give is the state of mind that allows you to have the fewest illusions. Why do we become selfish? Because we think we’re amazing, that we’re the centre of the world. If we let go of that notion a little, we’ll become better people. If we recognise our transience, we’ll naturally become kinder, more compassionate. By being humble—not by beating yourself up, because that too allows your ‘ego’ to take the lead—you correctly define your place in the world and ultimately treat yourself well.”Some define inspiration as the ultimate connection with the world. What do you say? “I experience it as happiness. How is it that sometimes you wake up in the morning and are in a good mood for no reason? It happens to me when I’m writing – even if I’m working on a sad scene, if I feel somewhat happy, I know I’m doing a better job. In any case, there’s no point in constantly chasing the muse; if I don’t feel it, I do the most mundane things – I go shopping, I go for walks, I see friends – and when I feel better, I get down to work. Of course, you don’t wait for it completely idly; literature, in particular, requires a lot of practice.” “What are your most significant literary influences?” “One writer I keep coming back to is Nikolai Gogol. Although I’m not sure I can describe what I like about him, I always try to write like an American Gogol. Chekhov is an influence, as are the Monty Pythons. Lately I’ve been wondering if there’s anything I’ve learnt about the world that hasn’t been properly expressed – I feel I don’t have much time left, perhaps the time has come to write my own truth. On the other hand, I feel ‘poorly educated’ when it comes to literature. I wish I could stop time and just read for twenty years, but unfortunately that’s not possible, and the limitations in my work stem from that. It’s never too late. Perhaps robotics will develop rapidly and we’ll start living to 180.” I imagine you’re probably tired of answering this question, but how do you view the situation with Donald Trump as US president? “Sickening. Shocking. There’s nothing good about it. And seeing this great American edifice crumble because of this bloke is tragic. As a writer, I’m trying to understand why I didn’t see it coming. I have quite a few friends and relatives who voted for him and I’m trying to listen to them, to understand. Trump is the result of a long period of decline, consumerism and poor education. And perhaps the choice of a spoiled generation. A generation that has never faced real hardship, which is why it sets fire to the house as soon as it feels even the slightest pressure. Because it has never found itself inside a burning house.”